When Objects Hold Our Stories: The Legends of Okiku, Peggy & Robert the Doll

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Hey everyone on this week's episode of Whispers from the Mist, Conversations from the Spiritual Byway. Today we are going to wrap up our Haunted Doll series by exploring three of the most fascinating stories in paranormal folklore. We'll take a closer look at Robert the Doll, Japanese legendary Okiku doll, and Peggy, a doll whose story has sparked plenty of debate in recent years. Along the way, I'll also share a personal experience that made researching one of these stories feel a little more meaningful. So join us now as we conclude this conversation along the spiritual byway. I am Michelle. I'm here with Stacy. Hello, Stacy. Hello, everybody. Hello, Michelle. It's great to be back. It is good to be back, and I'm excited to be back because I have that fear of dolls, but I am really enjoying the conversation about dolls because it's kind of helping me work through that fear, maybe a little bit.

SPEAKER_01 1:12

You gonna are you gonna buy one soon? No. Didn't say I'm gonna buy one. Just working through it.

SPEAKER_02 1:18

So I can be in the same room or I can be curious about them again rather than fearful.

SPEAKER_01 1:24

That's fair. Dolls and clowns are the two big ones that you hear a lot of people going, nope, absolutely not, not going near. I don't want anything to do with it. It's fair because especially with dolls, they do have a presence, even if they don't have like any sort of spiritual or paranormal association with them. You know, I know there were some of my Barbies that never showed any signs of anything, and I would still hide them. Just a safety measure, I guess. Yep.

SPEAKER_02 1:52

And only because you just mentioned dolls and clowns. I want to say I was just in Seattle and we were walking down in the market area, the Pikes Market, and it had to be a clown convention because there were like five or six scary ass clowns walking around down there and they were looking for a place to eat lunch. And the only reason I'm sharing this story is because I saw a little girl go up to one of them and say, Are you scary? And I was like, Wow, that's brave. That's bold to do that. But I mean, even if she was fearful, she wanted to ask him if he was scary. Did he respond? Did you see he did? He said, No, we're not scary. And I'm thinking, oh yeah, you are, but like I'm not telling the little girl that it's just, I don't know, something about the makeup and the face. But I just wanted to share that real quick.

SPEAKER_01 2:47

Well, it's it's a huge phobia, and it's also used in a lot of horror movies, too. So just bearing that in mind, I think it's an easy again, clowns and dolls, I'm telling you, like I am not one, like I'll go to like haunted, you know, things here that are local. I'll walk through scary houses and stuff like that. And I'm I don't freak out over the clowns, they don't really bother me, but you know, they're not great either. I don't wanna, I don't wanna like sit in their presence and be like, hey, friend, let's get to know each other. Like, I'm good.

SPEAKER_02 3:22

Exactly. And one of the spookiest clowns wasn't even created by Hollywood, it was Gacy, and he was a clown and uh like freaky, no thank you. Serial murderer, yeah, clown, serial murderer. Yeah. Well, uh, before we jump into this episode on dolls, I wanted to do a little bit of housekeeping from last week's episode because you had asked me about the box that Annabelle is contained in and what makes it so special. So I did do a little research on that. And one thing I found very interesting is Ed and Lorraine Warren didn't look at the materials that built the box as being the protective measure. It's when the priest came in to bless it and protect it that it got its protection. So I just wanted to share that. And then I also wanted to share that I pushed my phobia after hearing you talk about the island of the dolls, and I did what I said I was going to do. I watched Zack Bagan's episode on Ghost Adventures, and I felt rest assured when Zach himself has a fear of dolls. And he was getting creeped out. So I'm like, okay, at least it's not just me. I mean, you have this world-famous person who's on all sorts of TV shows who is uncomfortable with this. Yeah, yeah. So watching this episode, I didn't expect the bugs to be crawling in and out of missing eye sockets or broken limbs.

SPEAKER_01 5:04

That freaked me out. Um and I'm sure because it was being recorded and it was on TV that they drew a lot of attention whenever they found them. But bearing in mind that these dolls have been outside hanging in the woods for how long, of course, there's going to be probably snakes and and and birds and stuff laying and living in them because it's a space. It's a safe space. But ew, at the same time, it just adds to the creepiness of everything.

SPEAKER_02 5:34

And so, of course, you know, I'm looking up the island of the dolls on my social media, and then it gets into my algorithm. So now I'm going to creepy places where dolls are. And one of the creepy places I found was called Dead Dolly Lane, and it's located in Alpine, California.

SPEAKER_01 5:54

No.

SPEAKER_02 5:55

Yes. And it is a lane that an artist created. Like the artist owns the property, and he would hang dolls in various states along this lane. And it is a tourist attraction now. It could be a doll with its head missing or both its legs missing, and then the legs are somewhere else on this. It was horrible. I don't see either location in my future.

SPEAKER_01 6:24

Yeah, I I don't know if I would ever want to walk down a lane of dolls that are in different states of array. I think I'm I'm content with that. Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 6:32

Yeah, no, and I I will say that, you know, last week we talked about Annabelle. And in my mind, I would a hundred percent take a night with Annabelle over a night on the island of the dolls or in the the lane, the dolly lane. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 6:49

I would probably take a night on the island over a night with one of the dolls we're gonna cover today. At least two of the dolls.

SPEAKER_02 6:58

One of the dolls actually has a loving energy. Uh the other two, I don't know, they're just kind of different, I think. So do you want to jump in with Peggy or do you want me to jump in with one of my dolls that I researched? Uh, you pick it, you tell me. Well, since I have two, maybe I start with one. And the doll that I'm going to talk about today, her name is Okiku, and she is a legend that comes from Japan. But unlike Annabelle, the story about her isn't dark, it's not sinister, and it's a story that most people hold with great respect and emotion. So the story begins around 1918 when a teenage boy named Ikichi Suzuki bought a doll for his little sister, Okiku. And she loved this doll. She carried it everywhere. It was her confidant. She slept with it, she played with it. It was her favorite companion. But sadly, Okiku became sick and she passed away at a very young age. And heartbroken, her family placed this doll on their household altar in her memory. Now, as we've talked about before on this podcast, family altars are very common in many cultures, including Japan. So they're places that you put things to remember loved ones where you can pray and continue that bond of love. The family continued remembering their daughter while the doll remained on the altar. And then they began to notice something about this doll that they couldn't explain. The doll's hair started growing. Oh, okay. Yeah, you heard me correctly. Originally, this doll had a short bobbed haircut, and the family believed the hair gradually became longer. So what did they do? Cut it. They trimmed it. Oh, good lord. Okay. But then the hair continued to grow. Eventually, the doll was entrusted to the, I can't even say it, Man and G M-A-N-N-E-N-G-I Temple in Ho Hokado, where it remains today. And according to the story, the caretakers are still trimming this doll's hair because it still is growing. So for Okiku's family, this wasn't just a doll. It was their daughter's doll. And that's what I think makes the story so different from Annabelle, because instead of asking, is something evil attached to this object, the story is asking something deeper. Can love leave an imprint on an object? I actually love that. That feels so much better to me. Doesn't that feel much lighter? I mean, it is grief poured into this doll, love poured into this doll, imprinting on it. I'm not sure how I would feel about having to trim my doll's hair, though. Like I I know that would that would be a lot, and that would freak me out because it's not like one of the dolls we had as a child. I know there was one and its hair would grow and you could cut it, you could pull it out, make it longer. This wasn't the case. There was no reason this hair should be growing. But there is a part of the story that does kind of surprise me, and I can tie it back to an experience that I personally had in Japan. So while researching the story of Okiku, I came across another source that connected the name Okiku with both the doll and an older Japanese ghost legend. Now, the minute I started reading about this legend, I realized that I knew the story. And I knew the story because in 2025, I was visiting a historic castle in Japan, and we were leaving the castle, walking down by where this well was, and I had an immediate thought pop into my mind that went something like, There's a spirit here. And as soon as it popped into my mind, those simple words, there's a spirit here, I said to myself, just because you're hearing that doesn't mean there's a spirit here. And I started arguing with myself and I heard the response back, why couldn't that mean that? Not a minute later, the tour guide stopped and she said, And this is the well where a servant girl was thrown into it for stealing or breaking dishes, and she's said to haunt this place.

SPEAKER_01 11:20

Oh, wow.

SPEAKER_02 11:20

That is the story that I found while researching Okiku. They tied it back to the servant story in this well where she died and her spirit is said to haunt. So interesting. That is my personal tie back to the Okiku story.

SPEAKER_01 11:36

It's interesting because that you don't feel like they would go hand in hand at all.

SPEAKER_02 11:41

It had to do with the name. And so when I was researching Okiku, it just went directly to that story. But they mentioned the doll, they mentioned the legend, and I'm just like, this is so weird that I took Okiku because we had the dolls, and we're like, you take this one, I'll take this one. And that story popped through. And it was just such an immediate, there it is. Like, I know this story, I know this experience, I know the well, I have pictures of the well.

SPEAKER_01 12:08

I I think that is so cool, especially that you have the tie-in. And I'm gonna go back to what we were talking about initially before we dive into our stories. I would spend the night in the museum with Okiku. That's fine.

SPEAKER_02 12:19

I think I would touch- You probably wouldn't touch her hair, but yeah, I wouldn't offer to brush it or touch it. And you know, overnight you might not notice growth. And that's true. That's very true. Well, would you spend the night in Zach Bagan's museum with Peggy the doll? No. No, I've met Peggy.

SPEAKER_01 12:38

Well, I guess I'll dive right into the story. I hope you do. I can't wait. Peggy. I will fully admit and own that I kind of went through Chat GBT for the like a little bit of a story time here, but ChatGBT titled it Peggy. The doll who watches just, you know, Kibi Jebies right away. Oh, she does. Um, imagine you're walking through an old museum, the kind where every floorboard creaks and every room feels just a little bit cold colder than the last. In the corner of the room sits an ordinary doll. She isn't missing her head, she isn't covered in blood, she doesn't leap from the shadows, she simply sits. Her pale face is worn with age, whisps of blonde hair frame glassy blue eyes, and her expression never changes. At first glance, she looks just like any forgotten toy from decades ago. And Michelle, you've met Peggy. Does this description fit? It fits perfectly. According to many who have encountered her, there is nothing ordinary about her at all, though. Peggy's story actually began in England, where an elderly woman owned an antique doll. As the years passed, the woman became convinced that something in her home wasn't right. Strange feelings lingered in the rooms. She claimed she never felt alone, and the doll seemed to carry an unsettling presence she couldn't explain. Eventually, unable to live with the fear, she gave Peggy to paranormal investigator Jane Harris. Harris expected to examine an old doll. Instead, she said she began to receive emails from people who had done nothing more than look at Peggy's photograph online. Some reported splitting headaches, others became nauseous. Some said they felt an overwhelming anxiety or panic. A few even claimed they had vivid nightmares for days after seeing her face. Whether these experiences were paranormal or psychological remains a mystery, but the stories spread quickly across the internet. As Peggy's reputation grew, so did the theories. One psychic believed the doll was connected to the spirit of an elderly woman who survived unimaginable suffering during World War II. Others believed Peggy simply absorbed emotions of those around her, acting almost like a sponge to human energy. No one has ever been able to prove any of these ideas. But the legends continued. Visitors who stood before Peggy sometimes described an overwhelming sensation that they were the ones being observed, not by another person, but by Peggy herself. Many said her eyes followed them through wherever they moved in the room. Some couldn't bear to look at her for more than a few seconds. Others felt absolutely nothing at all. And today, Peggy resides at Zach Bagan's haunted museum in Las Vegas, where she sits quietly behind the glass. Guests are often warned not to stare into her eyes for some for too long. Some of them laugh and ignore the warning, and some leave the room feeling shaken. Whether that's because Peggy is genuinely haunted or because our minds are incredibly powerful is a question no one has been able to answer. Perhaps that's what makes her story so fascinating. Because unlike the tales of Ghost Caught on camera or monsters looking in the woods, Peggy asks something much more personal. Can an ordinary object become extraordinary simply because of the stories we tell about it? Or is there something really looking back through those old glass eyes? And only Peggy knows.

SPEAKER_02 15:55

In the Begins Museum, she kind of is talking because how they have it set up is Peggy is in front of you. You're warned not to look her in the eyes. So I followed that warning. Bonnie followed that warning, but in front of her is like a spirit box, and messages come through if you ask questions. Now, the night we were there, we asked questions, we didn't get a whole lot through. But the last thing on the spirit box before I walked into the room was one of the words of the place that I had just gone to eat dinner. One word. And I'm like, I just had dinner there. It wasn't in response to a question I had, but it was pretty freaky. And Peggy is exactly like you explainer. She's got the blonde hair, the blue eyes, she's contained. There's lots of dolls around her. She's not alone in that room. Lots of doll energy in there. And I've watched shows that Zach Begins has put out. He has a whole haunted museum series, and I watched it on Peggy the Doll. And he was even a little bit nervous about putting the real Peggy image in the video because it does affect so many people. They explain their heart beating fast, feeling faint, which that did happen in the Begins Museum to both Bonnie and I, but not at the Peggy exhibit. And the investigator that they gave it to started having experiences too in her own home. And that's when she reached out to Zach. And one of the things I did say after visiting the museum is I've never been in a place where intentionally they brought so many haunted or damaged or carrying energy of place in my life. Everything in there was intentionally sent there, and everything has a story. So for me, it was overwhelming to go there. Where Peggy is concerned, I was respectful when I went in there. They asked us not to look her in the eye. I did not look her in the eye, like I already said. But when I came into the room, I said hello. I don't know that I introduced myself because I didn't know that I wanted her to know my name. And when I left, I said goodbye.

SPEAKER_01 18:08

It almost seems as though it's up in a way to both protect that, but also amplify that kind of energy. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_02 18:16

It does. And I I would agree with that. I know walking in there, and this is probably TMI, but I really had to go pee, but I didn't really want to because I didn't want to leave any of my DNA or any of my anything behind me in that building because I didn't know.

SPEAKER_01 18:31

Like I just don't know.

SPEAKER_02 18:33

I knew I was protected. I knew the experience was going to be different than going into the Sally house or the Velisca house. I didn't know how it was going to affect me. I mean, we have a whole episode in our library. You can go back and listen to it. But Bonnie, you know, had her reaction to one room and I had mine to a smell in in there.

SPEAKER_01 18:50

So it was smells are powerful things.

SPEAKER_02 18:52

They are. And, you know, I did a little research as to when that smell came through. And I don't know what chloroform smells like, but to me, that sickenly sweet, like kettle popcorn is the smell that came through. And I had to leave. It was making me nauseous. We didn't even finish the tour. It was an hour and a half tour. We left within the first 45 minutes. That is, I mean, I I who who would blame you? Yeah. Not me. I don't know. Maybe I would go back during the day because this was a at-night flashlight tour, but I don't know. I don't know. I have other places to go before then.

SPEAKER_01 19:26

We don't need to go back right now. We can uh hold off on that one.

SPEAKER_02 19:29

Yeah, but I do want to ask you about something you said towards the end. Do you believe that part of Peggy's mystique is the rumors about her or the legends associated with her? Or are you feeling it's something deeper than that?

SPEAKER_01 19:45

I think it's definitely bold. I think that we give object permanence to things and it can affect us psychologically. And it doesn't necessarily mean that it's not paranormal. You and I talked about, you know, haunted spaces. And, you know, I know in the past we've done episodes on, you know, psychics and mediums keeping souls, you know, trapped in spaces and and essentially like the haunting farms. I'm gonna just use that term loosely. I think that we can create a space or an object that has such a significant following or energy to it that we are causing more issues than not. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_02 20:27

It does. That we can give the story a life of its own. I know there was an experiment done years ago where people are like, we're gonna create a poltergeist and then things started happening. Was it the power of them that did it? Chicken or egg.

SPEAKER_01 20:41

Yeah. You know, like like, are we opening, are we saying we believe in something so strongly that we're actually inviting, you know, spirits in our paranormal activity into it? Or was it there and we're we're just experiencing it?

SPEAKER_02 20:53

So, like chicken or egg. Exactly. Very interesting concept. Well, do you want to move on to Robert the Doll? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Let's hear Robert the doll. Okay, so so far today we've talked about Okiku and Peggy, and they have different stories and they ask different questions of us. But now we're going to go to Key West, Florida, because there's a doll there and his name is Robert. Now, like Okiku, Robert is still visited by people from all over the world. But what makes Robert different is the relationship people seem to have with him. Visitors don't simply come to look at him, many of them speak to him, and then they ask permission before taking a photograph. And then some later even apologize if they think they've offended him. Now this story begins in the early 1900s with a little boy named Robert Eugene Odo. Everybody called him Gene. And one day he received a handmade doll and was dressed in a little sailor suit. And from that moment on the two were inseparable. And what What has always fascinated me about this is that Gene loved his doll so much that he gave the doll his own first name. The doll became Robert, and from that day forward everyone called the little boy Gene. And it almost feels like he gave the doll part of his own personal identity. Now kids talk to toys, and that's perfectly normal, but according to the stories, Gene's family sometimes claim they heard another voice answering back. Furniture reportedly moved, and objects were found broken. Neighbors even claimed they saw Robert in different windows of the house. And whenever something strange happened, Gene always had the same explanation. Do you know what that is? Robert did it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:45

Oh no. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 22:47

So Gene grew up, he became an artist, he got married, and Robert remained a part of his life. After Gene's death, Robert was eventually placed in the Fort East Martello Museum in Key West, and he remains there today. And that's when the legend then exploded. Visitors reported camera problems, nightmares, bad luck, and unexplained experiences after mocking, and let me just say, bad choice, people, um, Robert, or taking his picture without his permission. The museum has received countless apology letters from people asking that Robert forgives them and for their bad luck to end. Now, I'm gonna take another minute of pause here because it becomes a little bit personal again, because it reminds me of the Velisca Axe house. When we went up into the attic, there was a doll who reportedly had spent time in many different haunted locations, and she was sitting on, I think it was a rocking chair on the other side of the room. I think there were some other dolls there, but she was holding letters that people had written to her apologizing for taking her picture.

SPEAKER_01 23:56

It's such an interesting thing because I believe there's a when I say I think it's Hawaii or somewhere along those lines where you're not supposed to take dirt or rocks or something like that because there are theories of being cursed after, and they get millions of letters or packages with these things that people have taken from the island back. And I'm not sure if it's don't uh don't hold me to that. I don't know if it's Hawaii. It just has a very similar feel to these two stories with these dolls. If you are disrespectful or you do things, you know, that are I'm gonna say energetically immoral, it it almost seems to stick with you longer.

SPEAKER_02 24:39

And I get that, and it is fascinating to me because in that moment when I saw that doll holding the letters and we looked at them, I was so uncomfortable. There was just something about that doll that made me want to leave the space. I didn't want to walk near it, I didn't want to stand near it, I didn't even want to look in its direction or acknowledge it. And I know that sounds crazy, but do you think that was my intuition? Was it just the atmosphere of the house? Or was I reacting to everything I'd already experienced that day in the Balliska house? I'm not sure. It just added to the I want to say ick factor, but it wasn't an ick factor. It was just like an overwhelming feeling of not one more thing. Like I mean, to me, it's this combination of all of the things, you know. Yeah. It was just really profound. And from what I understood at the time, the doll had been present, as I said, in different locations with paranormal histories. So that's kind of my aside to the whole Robert story. And it wasn't really until I started researching the Robert story that I remembered this whole Vallisca thing. But they were two completely different dolls, completely different locations, yet people are reporting the same thing. I've got to ask forgiveness. Did you get a description of what Robert looks like? I know he's dressed in a sailor suit and he's relatively tall. Do you have a description in front of you?

SPEAKER_01 26:04

Robert is a straw-filled doll, about three feet, roughly one meter tall, dressed in a sailor suit holding a small stuffed lion. He was reportedly given around 1904 to the young boy. You already explained this. The doll was nicknamed Robert after the boy himself. According to family stories, Jean became extremely attached to the doll, talking to it as if it were alive. But yeah, the description is pretty solid. Straw filled, about three feet tall, breast-dressed in a sailor suit. And it is worn, like really, really, really worn. He was a love doll. I mean, Jean loved absolutely loved, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 26:40

Yeah. So very interesting. I mean, he did have this relationship with the doll. He gave part of himself and his identity to the doll.

SPEAKER_01 26:49

Maybe that's why everyone is having such strong reactions to him is it's how how do you treat others? Are you respecting this, I'm gonna say child in the doll.

SPEAKER_02 27:01

Exactly. And again, if I were to go visit Robert in Key West, Florida, and it said, don't take a picture without permission, I probably wouldn't take a picture at all because how do you know you have his permission? Right. You don't know.

SPEAKER_01 27:16

So you don't know.

SPEAKER_02 27:18

Yeah, that's my story. Robert the doll. I don't know if you have any questions about it, but I mean, three totally different dolls today, five completely different experiences that we've talked about over the last two episodes. And again, it has me stepping into curiosity about the different dolls, the stories behind them. And maybe I just need to let go some of the fear.

SPEAKER_01 27:43

I think that that would come with time. And, you know, maybe getting a doll of your own that is blessed and not anything that creeps you out.

SPEAKER_02 27:53

Yeah, I don't see that happening anytime soon, but maybe with some additional research, that could happen.

SPEAKER_01 28:01

Have a raggedy and doll show up at your door?

SPEAKER_02 28:03

Um, probably not a raggedy and doll. Probably not a raggedy and doll. Well, do you have any other questions about dolls? Any closing thoughts on dolls, or should I just ask my listener questions?

SPEAKER_01 28:18

The only thing that I'm gonna throw out there is just show respect, whatever you you go and experience anything, even even if it's not a doll. Because a lot of the issues that are coming up here just have more to do with respecting the space and the the energy that you're intertwining with.

SPEAKER_02 28:34

And I love that you shared that. That's so true. Showing respect for even just the legend. Um, I think it's a great form of protection too, because you're following the rules or protocol. And it's just right to give items like that respect. It's right to give places that you visit that are historic, even ones that aren't haunted, the respect they deserve or their place in history. Absolutely. Okay. Well, here are the three questions. If you inherited an old family heirloom with a fascinating history, would knowing its story change the way that you felt about keeping it in your home? The second one is if you visited Robert the doll, would you ask permission before taking his picture? And if so, why or why not? And the third question is if you could ask Annabelle, Okiku, Peggy, or Robert one question and you knew you'd get an honest answer, which doll would you choose? And what's the question you would ask?

SPEAKER_01 29:40

Ooh. All really good questions.

SPEAKER_02 29:42

I know. I'm thinking about number three, which one would I don't know, probably Annabelle, because I'm going there and I can ask a question.

SPEAKER_01 29:51

I think I would go with Okiku.

SPEAKER_02 29:53

But I don't know what the question would be. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Well, we're gonna have time to explore Annabelle a little bit as a I don't want to say a side note. I'm giving it more respect than that, as part of the next story we're jumping into, which is the story of Ed and Lorraine Warren. We're gonna talk about who they were, what they did, what they contributed to history. And then I think we're going to spend a little bit of time talking about a couple of their cases, and then we're going to talk about the museum currently. And then Bonnie and I are going into the museum, and we're gonna have an episode about that in the near future. So lots of Ed and Lorraine Warren inspired things coming up. Very exciting. Okay, well, do you want to close out this episode, Stacey? Certainly. Stay curious. Trust what you know, and we will meet along the spiritual byway. Bye, everyone. Bye, guys. Thank you so much for listening to this week's episode of Whispers from the Mist. Conversations from the Spiritual Byway. This show exists to make the paranormal film a little more normal, to create a space for curiosity, connection, and the kinds of conversations we don't always know where to have. If you are enjoying this podcast, we truly appreciate it if you take a moment to leave a review or to share the show with someone who might need it. Your support helps this podcast reach others who are searching for the same sense of understanding and community. Thank you so much for taking the time to be here with us and for walking the stretch of the spiritual byway. Wherever you are on your journey right now, just know you're not alone. We're here for you, and we're all in this together.