Ed and Lorraine Warren: Belief, Criticism and the Art of Discernment

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Hey everyone, on this week's episode of Whispers from the Mist, Conversations from the Spiritual Byway. Today we are continuing our conversation about Ed and Lorraine Warren. Last week we shared their story, their work, and the legacy that they left behind. And this week, we're looking at the other side of the legacy, some of the questions and criticisms that have emerged over the years. Now, this episode isn't about criticizing the Warrens, it's about discernment. Times have changed, investigative methods have evolved, and today we have access to information that simply wasn't available decades ago. And before we close out this episode, I'll share a card reading I did as I tried to understand the Warrens from a different perspective. So, we'll take a look at what's being said, explore a few different perspectives, and as always, you can decide what you believe. And with that, we will continue this conversation along the spiritual byway.

SPEAKER_01 1:02

Hello, everybody, and welcome to this week's episode of Whispers from the Mist, Conversations from the Spiritual Byway. I'm Stacy, and I am joined by Michelle the Great.

SPEAKER_00 1:15

Oh, I like that. Thank you, Stacy. Hi, how are you? I'm good. How are you? I'm well. It seems like it's been a hot minute since we've talked because it has. Yes, it has. Lots going on in life, but in that downtime, and actually there was no downtime between when this happened. In last week's episode, we talked about the Warrens. We gave a breakdown of their timeline, what they were like when they were younger, when they got married, how everything started, some of their cases, which we're going to deep dive into in the next episode or two. But on the exact same day we recorded that episode later that night, Jason Haas, who I believe he's from Ghost Adventures, not the one with Zach Bagan's, but the other one, he did a YouTube live with a podcaster who went on the other side of the Warren story, the more controversial side of the Warren story. And I'm like, wait, we need to take a pause here so we can talk about some of the things that they shared.

SPEAKER_01 2:22

I'm so, so, so grateful that you sent me the podcast that I was able to listen to actually right before we jumped in today, because I can absolutely see how it makes people uncomfortable, especially with the Warrens having such a very strong and prominent name. I also really like to see both sides and have that balance though, too. And what was really cool to me, at least about this podcast, is not only were they discussing the different history and stories, they were also showing the backup for it, the newspaper articles and all of these things. So it was really interesting to me.

SPEAKER_00 3:02

It was, and it was Jason Haas. Again, do you know which one he's in? Do you know the name of the series he does?

SPEAKER_01 3:10

Let me take a quick look. Um, so it it says Jason Haas is an American plumber and co-founder of the Atlantic Paranormal Society Taps, which is based in Warwick, Rhode Island. He is also one of the stars and co-producers of Sci-Fi's Ghost Hunters, which ended its initial run after its 11th season, October 26, 2016. That's amazing.

SPEAKER_00 3:34

Well, he's now also, and I want to say owner of the Conjuring House. So that does have a tie back to the Warrens, but there have been a lot of legal issues around that house. I don't know if it's zoning or if it's putting it into an LLC so it can be a historical monument. There are a lot of things going on with that. So I hesitate to say he's the owner, but I do believe he's the owner.

SPEAKER_01 4:02

I can't back that up or argue with it.

SPEAKER_00 4:04

He did a YouTube live in which he brought on a woman named Stevie, and I can't pronounce her last name.

SPEAKER_01 4:12

Neither can I. It had a lot of accents, the marks on them and all. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:16

She is. She's someone who does her research and she knows what she's talking about. And she is from the podcast called Truth or Demons. Love that. Yes. And this podcast was just basically the two of them sitting down and talking about the Warrens. I don't think it was done as a criticism. I think it was done as here's the rest of the story, like Paul Hardy would say. Now the rest of the story.

SPEAKER_01 4:42

And that's the thing is I think one of the perspectives that I at least walked away with is they weren't just trash talking them. They were not disregarding the work that they did. What they did was brought some interesting things to light. And I think a lot of the things that they brought to light are really important for the paranormal research community because it can so easily turn into a circus where people are making up stories. And we being intuitives ourselves, what is most important, number one, is discerning if something is actually really happening. And you're kind of looking for the solution of, you know, oh, things went flying across the room. Was there an earthquake that day, or did something random happen? Or, you know, is there a doorknob that's loose? Like just you're looking for all of these innate, simple solutions. And that's how you start.

SPEAKER_00 5:42

And I think that's the point I want to talk about first is when you look at someone like Jason Haas and him going in and doing what he's doing, he's going in in a very controlled environment. And part of that is taking the time to debunk sounds, asking, like, were you there when the sound happened? I mean, it's very different than the warrants going in. They're going in through a Catholic framework of thinking. And their terminology is around demons. Their terminology is around things supported by their framework. So when they go in, they're not looking at control variables. They're not looking at what else might be going on. They're going in with a framework. This is what they know, this is what they're applying. And so let's discuss it from this point of view.

SPEAKER_01 6:30

Well, I think it's really important to your point to look at the time that they were doing this research, number one. And I think even in the podcast, they do a really good job of pointing out that they did not have at their fingertips the information resources that we have today. They did not have the internet, they did not have cell phones, they did not have a lot of these things. So what they essentially are going off of is what research they are able to do. And I know from my experience in school that doing research in a library is not always as easy as it is today. You know, I used the catalogs, you know, little cards to find books, all of that stuff. Yeah. And so any time or any information that they were able to gather had to, in a way, kind of be based on hearsay and what the experiences of the individuals they were working with were talking about.

SPEAKER_00 7:29

Exactly. And I found it fascinating in this talk between Jason and Stevie, really did say that while the warrants did not have access to all that, they also weren't aware that all of that information would come into play, that there would be ways to easily research items. And so part of their claim is maybe they exaggerated things because there was no way to debunk them because the internet wasn't there for you. But now people can go and do the research. They can look up old newspaper articles, which is something that Stevie did a lot. And like she didn't go into this blind. People, critics might not like everything she said, but she did go into it with the receipts. She she did the legwork.

SPEAKER_01 8:15

And the other thing that I kind of want to point out is during the time where they were really getting started doing the work that they were doing, we also have to look at what else was being sensationalized at that time. Um, you know, circuses were still incredibly prevalent with things. You must see this to believe it. You know, that it was it was a time where your door-to-door salespeople were a common feature in in life too. And in today's world, door-to-door salespeople do not really exist. It's not, it's not a thing that we think about because number one, we've got security cameras everywhere. We don't watch you showing up at our house. Number two, circuses now are, at least in my experience, kind of few and far between. And it's not a, oh, you have to see this to believe it. It's a, you know, show. Does that make sense? It does. So they're also operating in a time where in order to carve out your specialty, you have to sensationalize it, or people are not going to give it any thought or a second chance. And while I personally agree with the fact that I think a lot of it was sensationalized, I kind of see the why. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_00 9:32

It makes sense. And to that, I would like to say I do believe it was sensationalized, but it wasn't always the Warrens sensationalizing it. You have other people getting in there, writing books, Hollywood, producing movies. We all know what Hollywood does to a real life story. It changes it. So it wasn't always by their own doing. Could it be something came out that sounded more exciting and they were like, yep, like we'll just adapt that as part of our folklore? I believe that could have happened. But I do believe there is truth in everything they said, how it was spun, how they presented it, how it grew. Again, often not within their control, but what was in their control, maybe they weren't as vocal about it, or there wasn't an easy way to be vocal about it.

SPEAKER_01 10:20

Right. What I did find incredibly interesting is that early on in the history of the Warrens, Lorraine was not super involved until it came out that she was psychic. That that I did pick up, and I thought that was very interesting.

SPEAKER_00 10:35

I found that interesting too. The one thing I really was uncomfortable with that she said, um, Stevie, she being Stevie, she said that Lorraine was not very involved and that Ed was going out working with psychics mediums, learning from them so he could teach Lorraine. Now, we all know that being a psychic medium, saying we talk to spirits, we have an interest in the paranormal is not always well received. Now, take it back 60 years, that could have just been something that Lorraine kept to herself, her husband knew about. I don't think he had to teach her. I I don't believe that part of it. Maybe she just became more comfortable with who she was as their experiences together moved forward.

SPEAKER_01 11:20

And I'm gonna agree with you because I I think a lot of it too, when we talk about sensationalization, the way it was, a lot of it will it seemed like it was kind of Ed in the very beginning. He was doing things, he was talking to people, he was sharing things, he was getting things moving. And, you know, it very well could have happened that Lorraine was not comfortable coming to the spotlight initially, because it is said that she was raised in Catholic school systems. And if you are a psychic or a medium, the Catholic school system or the Catholic viewpoint of that is it's connected to what I'm gonna just say hell. So if that's what you're raised in, it's gonna take you a while to be able to go, yep, I can absolutely come forward.

SPEAKER_00 12:11

And I think it's really important to remember when talking about the Warrens that there are so many layers. And I think I said that in the first episode. It's all intertwined. There are the supporters, they're critics. You know, I think it's very important that we have discernment when we look at everything, but you can't take away the pioneer aspect. You can't take away the fact that they were out there doing the work, putting in the time, having experiences, and probably promoting themselves along the way, not correcting stories, but it doesn't take away from what they did. They helped a lot of people. I truly, in my heart, when I think about them, I feel that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:53

No, I I absolutely agree with that. I I think that while we can in today's times, we can go through and dissect every piece or everything that they did and tear it apart in both, you know, believable ways and unbelievable ways. I think that, you know, they brought a lot of attention to a topic that needed, you know, some some traction, needed some attention. And they really are and were pioneers. With that said, it's the same as psychology. We learn by doing things incorrectly along the lines. We learn by experimenting and seeing what actually works and what doesn't.

SPEAKER_00 13:35

That's so true. And I think if you want to hear everything that was said, it's worth a listen. It is about an hour and 15 minutes long, but I will put it in our show notes because even they said at the end of the episode something along the lines of do you think the Warrens helped or did they hurt? And honestly, I have to agree with their answer. There's a little bit of both. They did help in bringing this up, bringing this to attention, but by not setting the record straight, did they hurt it? I mean, people right now in this field are really focused on discernment. And my point of view, in my perspective, I don't want anyone to ever think I'm a fraud or deliberately not looking at all the other reasons why something might happen. In a future episode, because I've already recorded it with Bonnie, there is a section of the video in which I'm talking. And I'll just start this by saying throughout that whole recording, I felt something was with us. I recorded it four or five weeks ago, hadn't listened to it, went in to edit it. And in this one part, whatever it was came forward. And at the timing that it came forward, we were talking about an internet outage that started at the Warren House. The coincidence of it, the timing of it. For me, it means something because I know how my signs come through. To somebody else, it's going to be a microphone glitch or an internet glitch. I can't tell you it wasn't one of those things. Again, it happened four or five weeks ago. I know the internet was fine. I know there was no background noise, but for me, that's how the universe speaks to me. I take it for what it is, just like, okay, I am here with you. This is confirmation.

SPEAKER_01 15:22

Right.

SPEAKER_00 15:23

And that and that makes sense.

SPEAKER_01 15:24

It's it's more of like a nod, right? Right. Yep.

SPEAKER_00 15:26

That's more than like the timing. And for me, the universe and timing when they come through together like that, it means something. I've learned to listen to my signs and synchronicities. Yeah. That's because it's a sign to me doesn't mean it is to somebody else. You can try to debunk it. That's fine. It doesn't hurt my feelings, but we use discernment. And so that's what I'm kind of getting at. Like to be taken serious, you have to look at everything. So maybe that's why some people don't take them seriously because they didn't have controls in place. They didn't have anyone checking the validity or the facts.

SPEAKER_01 15:57

Right. Yeah, it's interesting. You were uncomfortable by one piece of it, and another piece of it made me really uncomfortable listening to it. And it has to do with the fact that when we talked about the Warrens last time, I remember talking about their love story and how devoted to one another they they were. And I know in the podcast, Stevie brought up a woman, I believe her name is Judy. And it was, I guess, known that she was, or, you know, may have been Ed's mistress. And they went as far as, I guess, building an apartment at the top of their house for her. Um, some people thought that she was just their secretary, but it's really interesting because when I heard that, it really did actually give me pause because it makes you wonder where does the truth lie? And, you know, so going off of that discernment piece, we also are looking at the background of the people that are doing this research too, right?

SPEAKER_00 16:57

That's true. And I do know that story is a part of the criticism against the Warrens. And it did give me a moment of pause, but I knew that was there. I've heard other research years ago about this possible involvement. I actually did debate do I bring that up or not. So I wasn't going to unless you did. So I'm happy that you did.

SPEAKER_01 17:18

I I think that there was so much weight put into it. And again, I think that there's a why. You know, when we are looking to work with somebody on a spiritual front, we want to know who are they? Where do they come from? What is their background? Are they going to understand my story through their experiences as well? But there's a reason people put bios on their websites.

SPEAKER_00 17:42

Exactly. I agree. And so I'll just say it was a very interesting conversation. Again, Stevie came with the research. She came with the notes, she came with the receipts, newspapers, interviews, things like that. And I really think that people should go and listen to this if they want to hear the full story, just real quickly. And some of this was touched on, probably most of this was touched on, but I also did research on some of the reasons why they were criticized. The first one being is they came from that Catholic point of view. That was their framework. So everything they did, all their terminology was based through the Catholic religion. So you have something that goes bump of the night, it's immediately a demon. It can't be anything but the but an actual demon. Yeah. Their evidence was often not scientifically proven. There were no controls put out there. Uh, they just went and they had their experience and it was what it was. Right. Um, there are many people out there who say they sensationalize cases, which we know that to be true. We know that cases were changed, maybe if not by them, by Hollywood, by the people around them, and by them, probably. And then the next thing I wanted to say, they are criticized often because people who are involved in the actual stories are now saying maybe they're not completely true. Maybe they were sensationalized, and maybe, just maybe, the Warrens put themselves in a major role in a story, but they had a minor role in the story.

SPEAKER_01 19:15

And so there were a few examples of that. If you don't mind me jumping in and adding to that one of the biggest things that they said in this podcast that that I kind of like it, I don't want to say it hit hard, but it's kind of a knock to the gut a little bit. Is I guess a few people had come forward and said working with Ed, he was more about the financial aspect than anything else. And that's all I needed to know. And it was a message of I didn't want to work with him anymore. And you you hear that and you go, oof, you know, I understand needing to make a living. I understand all of that stuff in in like some capacity, but that's harsh when you do hear it. I agree.

SPEAKER_00 20:00

I agree. So, with all of that, I mean, again, people do your research, discern, listen, make your own decisions about the Warrens. Again, I think they did a really, really good job bringing all of this to the forefront and making paranormal research less taboo. I agree. I'm sorry, I'm moving all my notes around because I did do something that I don't always do because I was so confused by the Warrens that I pulled four cards. And I pulled the cards from my Lightseer's Tarot deck by Chrissanne. And the first card I pulled, and you're gonna find this very interesting too. I haven't shared these with you because I want your genuine reaction. But the first card I pulled was the Four of Pinnacles, and the question that I asked was, what do I need to know about Ed and Lorraine Warren? Now, I wrote down my responses so I would have them because we're recording this after the fact. But when I went to pull the cards, I did expect to find something grand, like a king, a queen, or a major arcana card that came out. But instead, as I said, I found the Four of Pentacles. And my immediate feeling when I saw this was somebody rising above the noise. Because the woman in this image feels confident in what she is holding. So her knowledge, her procedures, the way she's living her life. She did not need to step into every argument going on around her or seek outside validation for what they know to be true. And I keep saying the woman, but this again is being applied to Ed and Lorraine. The message to me felt like I hear what's being said, I'm acknowledging it, but I know what I've done. I know my methods, I know what I believe, and I don't need to release that simply because someone else demands an explanation.

SPEAKER_01 22:09

I love that. Uh and when I when I looked at it initially, what what I got this feeling of is somebody that stepped into something that might have felt uncomfortable to them and you know chose to go with it as opposed to, you know, driving against it.

SPEAKER_00 22:27

That makes so much sense. For me, the card was also about holding on to who you are and what you believe. It did not answer whether every story was factually perfect because like the cards can't tell me history, but it spoke instead to conviction. The Warrens held firmly to what they understood to be their truth through their paradigm. And I did pull these cards prior to watching that episode. So that was the first card again, four of pinnacles. The second card, the question was, who was Lorraine Warren? What does she want us to know about her? And the card I drew, Five of Pentacles. When I turned over the Five of Pentacles, I immediately saw somebody making herself small, not invisible, but minute within a larger scheme of things. It felt as though she had experiences, answers, or something within herself that she did not yet know how to release. Instead of moving outward, she brought everything inward. That feeling reminded me of the stories Lorraine later told about her childhood and having experiences she did not always feel free to express. But this did not feel powerless. So that's very important. It felt like a building pressure, a power keg waiting for the right moment to release. And eventually she would find her way out of the box. Eventually she would release what she had been holding on to. She simply wasn't there yet. So the four was talking about holding on to things while the five felt like containing and then preparing for release. That's what I picked up about.

SPEAKER_01 24:11

Until she came out and kind of started stepping into her power, right? Like that's what it feels like. Like I'm releasing, I'm opening, I'm becoming.

SPEAKER_00 24:20

And but there's that key in the background too, that is all about release. It's all about like the power is within your hands. And yeah, it's just even if you listen to who she was in investigation, she wasn't out there being loud. She was like sitting on the side, observing, taking in, doing her light trance work. So it really did feel connected to Lorraine Warren. Okay, now I'm gonna move on to the next card I pulled, which is all about Ed Warren and who he is and what he wants us to know about him.

SPEAKER_01 24:56

I'm very curious about this one.

SPEAKER_00 24:58

Are you very curious? Well, prepare to be very shocked because the card I drew for him the Six of Pentacles. Wow. Five, six, all pentacles, all earth-based, grounded information. So it really does feel like the earthbound duty of it all. But when I look at the six of pentacles, again, I could hardly believe it. The Warrens Together now have given me the four, the five, the six. My immediate feeling was a balancing of power. There may even have been a little sleight of hand, but intuitively it did not feel like the extreme deception some critics had alleged. It felt like someone who recognized what was happening, accepted it, understood the exchange, and knew what people needed from him. Ed seemed to understand the vehicle. He understood that if he wanted information to reach people, there had to be a balance between the experience itself and the way the experience was communicated to others. Perhaps for the sake of a story, which we all do for the sake of the story, something could have been emphasized, perhaps a date detail could have been changed or become larger in the telling. The card cannot tell me whether it's historically accurate, but intuitively I did not experience this card as saying he was lying. I experienced it as something maintaining a balance, understanding what he needs to give and what others need in order to receive the message. So that huge, you feed the beast, I'll feed you back sort of thing.

SPEAKER_01 26:31

Yes. And I honestly, even looking at that card, I'm not getting much more. It's just I'm I've never seen Pentacles in order like that in a reading. That's so that's actually really cool to me.

SPEAKER_00 26:41

Just I I wanted to make sure to get these cards in just for that reason because I've never had it come up four, five, six. I mean, if it was a poker hand in Vegas, it probably wouldn't win me a lot of money, but it would be like a straight or flush. A straight and a flush. Well, the the final card that I got or that I drew is how does their story all come together? And it's not another pinnacle. It's actually the nine of cups. Interesting emotion. Yeah, looking at this card, the nine of cups felt like freedom from the earthbound and material pieces of the story. There had been a means to an end, a means of getting messages across and accomplishing what needed to be accomplished. Once that happened, there was release. Looking at the image, I almost felt the cups being batted away, like, nope, I don't need that anymore. Not that, not that either. It felt like pushing aside what was no longer important and releasing into the truth of the experience. The fortune may be there, the publicity may be there, the critics are there, even pieces of a story that became exaggerated, changed, or Hollywood eyes may be there. But intuitively, none of these things felt like the final focus. The focus was the experience, the focus was the information they wanted to share, and that message had gotten out. So that's what I saw when I looked at that card.

SPEAKER_01 28:04

I get that they may have been playing into emotions a little bit, but they did it to help them get themselves out there. Like that's kind of what comes through or pops through for me.

SPEAKER_00 28:15

Yeah, I love that. So those were the four cards I got when I asked about the Warrens. So that's very interesting. Thank you for taking the time to do that. Yeah, no, I needed to do that to help clear my mind because, you know, I had shared the timeline, then I did my own research on the criticism of them, then I watched the episode and I'm like, oh my gosh. So yeah. Well, in next week's episode, we are going to start a deep dive into some of the most famous cases associated with the Warren. And again, I'm gonna say according to books and research, they had a role in it in some way. But what their role was has changed over time. But I'm good with that. Absolutely. Yeah. Okay, well, before we close out this episode, I do have three questions for our listeners. The first one is can someone be completely sincere in what they believe and still be wrong about what they're experiencing? The second question is, if something can't be scientifically proven, does that make the experience any less real to the person who had it? And the third question is, after everything that you've heard about Ed and Lorraine Warren, do the controversies change how you view their legacy?

SPEAKER_01 29:37

Those are great questions.

SPEAKER_00 29:38

Thank you, Michelle. Um well, Stacey, would you like to close out this episode?

SPEAKER_01 29:44

Absolutely. Thank you, everyone.

SPEAKER_00 29:49

And we will meet you along the spiritual highway. Until next time. Thank you so much for taking the time to be here with us. Wherever you are on your journey right now, just know you're not alone. We're here for you, and we're all in this together.